My Conversation with Kevin Smith

[LindaRutherford]

I had the chance this afternoon to speak directly with director Kevin Smith. I let him know that in my 18 years here at Southwest, I have never dealt with a situation like what has been unfolding in the last 48 hours. I let Kevin know we have refunded his airfare. I told him we made a mistake in trying to board him as a standby passenger and then remove him. And I told him we were sorry.

Now, 48 hours later, after talking to many involved, we know there were several things going on that day and that our Employees were doing their best to get his flight out safely and on time, including finding seats for everyone and trying to accommodate standby passengers. The Captain did not single Kevin out to be removed, but he did ask that the boarding be completed quickly. At that time, our Employees made the decision to remove Kevin after a quick judgment call that he might have needed more than one seat for his comfort and those seated next to him. 

Although I’m not here to debate the decision our Employees made, I can tell you that I for one have learned a lot today. The communication among our Employees was not as sharp as it should have been and, it’s apparent that Southwest could have handled this situation differently. Thanks, Kevin, for your passion around this topic. You were a reasonable guy during our conversation.

Southwest, like most carriers, has a policy to assist passengers who need two seats onboard an aircraft. The policy is an important one for the comfort and safety of all passengers aboard a plane, and we stand by that 25-year-old policy. This has our attention, and we will be reviewing how and when this delicate policy is implemented.

[Kirsten1]

This is not an apology. This is sever back-peddling. What has been lost here is that fact that Southwest condones the behavior of its employees. Otherwise, the situation would not have repeated itself on the flight Mr. Smith was allowed to remain on -- his original flight reservation. How else does one explain the gratuitous humiliation of the young woman who sat next to Mr. Smith on that flight? Has SWA reached out to her? What part of the policy states that flight attendants should call out the heavier passengers and warn them that they may be booted from FUTURE flights? Did Mr. Smith's seatmate have her fare refunded? Has she received an apology? I think not, which is WHY Mr. Smith is being vocal about his treatment. He is speaking up for those who have no voice and have suffered under this arbitrary "policy" for 25 years. Listen to the podcast. for the full story. Listen, I used to be fat -- very fat, 339 pounds fat -- and I lived in fear of being humiliated every second of every day. It took me ten years to get down to 125, a place where I shouldn't have to care anymore. But, you know what? I have a heart and I empathize with the daily humiliations that are heaped upon people of size. Instead of being indignant because you "OWN" your seat as some numskull wrote earlier, how about being a member of the human race, lifting the arm rest yourself and sharing the space you don't need with someone who does. Pay it forward, people!

[BC]

While this was certainly a more sensitive response to this debacle, you have failed to deal with one fundamental issue, which is that he apparently satisfied your own stated requirements to occupy a single seat. While I am a larger person, I believe that I could and should occupy a single seat without difficulty. However, I fundamentally AFRAID to fly your airline any longer for fear of inaccurate enforcement and the ensuing public humiliation. In reading some other comments, I think there were some exceptionally interesting questions posed, such as, how is an overweight person any more of a safety risk in an evacuation than someone who is an invalid or mentally incompetent? What about the 6' 6" person occupying an aisle seat and preventing an easy exit by someone sitting in the window or middle seat? While your policy may be 25 years old, it certainly sounds like it is selectively enforced and singles out a section of the population that is likely no more of a hindrance than many other categories of people. Again, I am now AFRAID of the risk associated with flying Southwest and I will take every opportunity to avoid doing so.

[JessiDarko]

It is unfortunate that Southwest is still lying about this situation. And as anyone who listened to Kevin's podcast knows, a woman who shared the later flight with him was VERBALLY ABUSED by a southwest employee about her weight. She wasn't asked to leave, but she was taken aside and in an attempt to humiliate her, told she should buy a second seat. It happens that the seat between her and Kevin was already bought and paid for by Kevin, so if she had bought a second seat, that seat would have been sold TWICE. She wasn't taken off of the plane, so the only reason to take her aside like that was to humiliate her. Southwest, you are still LYING about this situation, and you have a serious problem here. It will never change until you own up. I think you figure you're ok because most people are skinny and so many of them say "kevin should lose weight" Because they BELIEVED YOUR LIES YESTERDAY. Well, when you train your employees to be abusive to passengers, it may start with weight but it never ends there. You've had 48 hours to act like a grown up organization and be honest about this situation. You've done nothing but continually spread misinformation and that is simply unacceptable. 25 year customer of yours, no more.

[canada]

Gotta say, people who are obese, should have to pay for more seating. Otherwise, why do we have to have them infringing on our airspace in the seats? Perhaps, there should be some super-sized seats, where they pay 1.5 more, or perhaps only a limited number of super-sized seats on flights. I like Ken Smith, he is a funny guy. BUT, if a person is obese, and hangs over their part of the seat, then they should have to pay more. Why should a normal sized person have to suffer with limited space. It looks like Kevin Smith is blowing this out of proportion. So I am on the side of the airlines on this one.

[Steve_Stevenson]

Enlisting employees of SW to comment on this post is sad. The post itself is hardly an apology. Sounds a lot like corporate wording that never says anything very substantive. I believe the more honest you are about the situation, the more respect you will keep. This situation was handled disingenuously from the first moment, and no one from the airline is yet ready ti step up and be honest. And one more thing, until SW figures out how to handle themselves with integrity, keep your mouth shut (and your friends trying to light up the comment section with positive comments about SW).

[Anonymous491]

Tell me, where in your Corporate Governance documents does it indicate it's okay for an employee to LIE about Pilot instructions? Just curious... http://www.southwest.com/investor_relations/if_corporate_governance.html

[Ryan111]

It is ridiculous, most of the people who are leaving comments siding with Southwest never took the time to understand the situation. They policy which they state was the reason Kevin Smith was ejected off the flight uses the following criteria: "The armrest is the definitive gauge for a Customer of size. It serves as the boundary between seats and measures 17 inches in width. Customers who are unable to lower both armrests and/or who compromise any portion of adjacent seating should proactively book the number of seats needed prior to travel." Kevin Smith fit in a single seat and could lower both armrests. Yet he was still asked to to deplane. he makes it clear numerous times, the problem isn't that he doesn't understand that it is uncomfortable to sit next to fat people, and that if he didn't pass the criteria he should face the consequences but HE didn't break any of the criteria of said policy. THAT is the problem. Sure no one wants to sit next to a super fat person who is spilling over to their side, but if the criteria set in their "25 year old policy" doesn't work, either change the freaking policy, or make damn sure all the employees understand the criteria.

[jim_l]

i think its important to enforce the rules around obese people. flying is a horrible experience especially when your little private space (which you paid for) needs to be taken up by someone else going over their own space. maybe sothwest didnt handle this as good as they could. but i am glad they stood up for the principle. alto of airlines wont do anything unless someone complains. i would love to travel with this airline but i live in canada with one of the worst airlines in the world who wouldnt say squat because no one at the airline cares about thier jobs.

[Michael_Smith2]

I just wanted to say that although this situation may have been handled incorrectly but for the most part this policy is fantastic. I am a frequent flyer and on multiple airlines have had to deal with the person next to me "spilling" over into my seat, where I can't even put my arms up by my side, which is not fair considering the ticket I purchased. Good job Southwest and keep on enforcing the policy. I FOR ONE WILL CONTINUE TO ONLY FLY SOUTHWEST, as that way I know my space will be respected, amen to that!

[Anonymous2320]

This is an apology? Explanation? It sucks. Your TWENTY-FIVE YEAR (what, like that validates it?) policy is as bigoted now as it was then. This, and you - yes, I mean YOU Linda - for writing such a weak response to this - are pathetic. I'll never buy another ticket from you.

[Tom_H]

I love that all of the overweight people are complaining about their rights. I travel over 80,000 miles every year for work and I would rather have a screaming baby behind me than an obese individual sitting next to me. I can put on noise reduction head phones to deal with the baby, but what do the overweight people suggest for a remedy when you are so large that you have to wedge yourself into a seat and then have the remaining flesh spill over onto my seat? I now have even less room to sit because you decided that it's okay to invade my space. I applaud Southwest in their efforts. They are acting in the best interest of the majority of their passengers. As a Frequent Flyer on multiple carriers I only wish that Southwest's actions are replicated by other airlines and Southwest does not cave under the pressure and change its policy.

[Bill211]

Wow, my negative post magically disapeared

[Southwest_flyer]

For all of the people who are angry at Southwest for enforcing this policy, and making their intentions known they'll never be flying on SWA again - I say a great big "thank-you" for making sure I'll have enough room on my next Southwest seat. Good luck finding another airline that will be half as helpful as SWA!

[Anonymous3671]

Hitler had a several year's long policy about Jewish people. Does that make it right?

[Mari1]

I agree with Cindy when she said "That's fine if you have ur policy regarding overweight passengers.........BUT, this should be addressed WHEN the customer checks in!! NOT when the customer is already on the plane! This is the main reason that I will not fly with Southwest Airlines.." I was a ride operator at a theme park and if there was a guest that MIGHT need to be approached with an extender belt or bigger seat, you had better believe that we addressed is before they sat down! So, let me get this straight-- a THEME PARK has better S.O.P.'s (did you get that? Do you need to google it?) than an AIRLINE??? Oh, and lovely way of so INFORMERLY referring to the customer MR. SMITH. No matter his profession, you should still refer to a customer in a formal manner. Sorry, but every job I've ever had always taught me to respect the customer and address them with respect (even if I *think* they are wrong). Obviously your work ethic SUCKS.

[Anonymous2882]

I have had the pleasure of being on a flight with Kevin Smith and, not only could he fit into his seat, he fit into it better than other passengers on the plane. The person saying he is 400 lbs is ridiculous. What is also ridiculous is the number of 'normal' sized people commenting on how parts of their seats are taken over, etc. How many times have I flown and those 'normal' sized people have taken both armrests, leaving the people on either side with neither [including the one which houses their remote control functions!] or invaded the under seat space because they felt entitled to bring their larger than normal carry-on and shove it under the seat. Face it, it's not just larger people who 'invade' space. I've flown next to many larger people who were far more considerate than those of my same size. It's attitudes like these that make people feel bad about themselves. People are what they are and it isn't your business to regulate. And, as for safety concerns, a large person can evacuate just as well as anyone else. Children are more of an evacuation risk than a large person, but if someone banned children on a flight, they'd be publicly persecuted. Not only that, I've had my space infringed upon more by parents who seat their children in other rows and let them run wild or oversized child carriers than I ever have by a person.

[Anonymous1531]

The problem is two folded. First of all, most of us is FAT and overwieght, I am. Even if I were not, airline seats have shrunk and shrunk....even thinner people are running out of space. So we as passengers should do our best to lose weight and the airlines can make seats so we are not crammed in like SARDINES just to make a few extra bucks...

[Edward_Hyde]

Hey SouthWest creeps, Have you even listened to his side of the sordid story? Find it here: http://www.smodcast.com/ The way events unfolded are not mentioned in the speel you offered in your response here. Thank God his fame allowed your bullying of passengers to come to light.

[Anonymous4271]

why are we all of the assumption that a "normal sized" person does not infringe on a neighbor's seat? i've had people fall asleep and bob their head toward my shoulder, i've had men sitting with their legs spread wide enough to play footsie with me. what the hell does "normal sized person" mean anyway. wake up and look around. this is the most overweight country in the world, and kevin smith is not the only one.

[Caroline_Messam]

I have sat next to overweight people in Filghts, and I'm so confussed to the Safey Issue that Southwest has so greatly emphasized. What possible threat can a over weight person do that would jeopardize my safety. 1. Sneak my food when not looking... fyi airplane food is crap and by me not eating it is actually increases my safety. 2. taking up room in life raft if plane should go down. Sorry but if I have a choice between choosing a raft with skinny people or over weight people, I'm going with the big guy, becasue if the raft should pop,the big guy can make as a second option as a floating device, again good for my safety . So good on you Kevin you have every right to be pissed off, and seriously Southwest time to draft up a new policy.

[mwg]

I wish the size policy would apply to men (and I guess some women) who are just BIG (tall, broad shouldered etc)- a fat heiny does cause problems but there are many men who can fit their hips easily into the seat between the arm rests but whose shoulders and arms bump into those next to them. I find that more annoying than the hips spilling over. The fact that those people aren't asked to buy extra seating but fat people do makes me question if this truly is an unfair policy- it should apply to anyone who doesn't fit into a seat width-wise (hips, shoulders, whatever). Also I'm amazed at the blatant hatred and mocking of fat people. Alcoholics, drug abusers are looked at with much greater sympathy by the general population than people who abuse food. For many it goes way beyond not exercising and poor diet choices.

[Max4]

It seems that one of the posters (yes you Rick) should change his name to Tool. I don't think that Southwest's seats are any smaller than any other carriers. No one how skinny they are can say that any coach class seat is generous. With the armrests the way they are; how could anyone comfortably sit in two seats? (if you don't believe me, try it the next time you fly!) I think that there is a hidden issue here... one of arrogance among flight personnel. The Kevin Smith issue should teach SW a lesson in customer relations. There are millions of weight-challenged individuals in the US. Because we 'have a choice' we will think twice before flying with an airline that won't treat us fairly.

[MB_in_Houston]

Two points: 1) Southwest Airlines was *accommodating* Mr. Smith by placing him on a flight that was earlier than his scheduled flight -- the one for which he'd purchased two seats. From what I've read, it seems only one seat was available on the earlier (standby) flight. Ideally, if additional seats had been available for standby passengers, and there had been enough time, I think Mr. Smith could have been pre-boarded so an SWA employee could determine how many seats -- one or two -- were needed. With only one available standby seat, it probably would've been prudent for an SWA gate employee to have offered the one seat to another passenger, and kept Mr. Smith on his original flight. Perhaps this incident will lead SWA to recommend that gate staff take such action in the future in unique situations. 2) Again, SWA was accommodating Mr. Smith. Did he ever *thank* anyone at SWA for the attempt to get him on an earlier flight?!!

[Edward_Hyde]

Many US states had racist policys in place for more then 25 years. You can justify any inhuman treatment by touting heritage

[lara]

Comparing Hitler to Southwest here is really fucking lame. As is Southwest's apology. You guys can do much better than this. We fly Southwest because we are price conscious but that doesn't mean you can arbitrarily treat people like shit.

[rjk]

Kevin Smith contends that he is able to fit into a single seat, with arms down and wearing a seatbelt without extender. Are you claiming he does not? Was he given the opportunity to demonstrate if he was able to? If not why not? This seems like a quick and simple to confirm.

[Lacey1]

This company is pathetic, and so are you for attempting an apology that clearly isn't one. It is discrimination(!) and unfortunate that a employee of Southwest who should be maintaining a professional demeanor is now publicizing an incident with a paying customer.

[Dewayne]

The problem isnt with the policy its with the execution. If the rule is that if you cant lower the arm rests and buckle up you need to seats thats fine, but Kevin was able to meet all their criteria. If the concern is that he is a hazard in case of emergencies then they need to exclude the elderly and young children as well. Dont forget anyone in a cast or with a physical disability as well.

[Anonymous1843]

Interesting that Linda tells Kevin one thing, yet blogs another. http://silentbobspeaks.com/?p=393 I WAS planning on flying SWA to Orlando in October, but am seriously considering another airline. How they handled this situation is very poor customer service.

[Anonymous802]

I am totally on Southwest's side. If Kevin Smith is boycotting Southwest, I am boycotting Cop Out. Hopefully others who think he is acting irrational and crying for attention at the expense of Southwest Airlines will do the same. There have been many of flights I've been on recently where I wish the flight attendants would have done the same with some of the people sitting next to me!!!

[Christina_B]

Kevin purchased an extra seat not because he was fat but because he is shy and does not want to participate in conversation he is cornered into. The ill mannered comments people have made about fat people just astound me. Substitute African American, Hispanic, Jew or even Republican and would the hate mongers still feel so open to show their prejudice? They sold Kevin the ticket and let him on the plane. There were no second guesses until he was comfortably seated. The stewardess used the captain as an excuse when he was not even involved. This is about prejudice and NOT safety. I amamazed more bigots are not being called out on the prejudice they have displayed here. Shame on you!!

[Anonymous4082]

Goes to show that the media can twist facts. Nice job for clearing the air and refunding Mr. Smith's money.

[Anonymous4188]

Very lame apology. Did you really admit any error? What a mess you've gotten yourself into. Try treating people with some dignity and honor. Oh well, I guess that's just the way corporate jerks are... so sad.

[Anonymous1039]

and you STILL haven't APOLOGIZED for humiliating a fellow human being. i will never fly southwest again. ps: "everybody else does it" isn't a valid reason for discriminatory practices, just FYI.

[Anonymous3596]

SO... Why doesn't "Do the Right Thing" Gary Kelly, CEO of SW weigh-in on overweight people? Either his corporate vision is stock holder BS, or he's too removed to realize his vision hasn't trickled down to those who interact with customers.

[Anonymous2150]

The "I'm sorry, But" negates anything you said before. SWA embarrassed and humiliated a passenger because their employees did not know how to handle this situation from the beginning. If Mr. Smith had not been boarded, when the employees knew there was no room, then none of this would have happened. Then, to blame it on another issue, the weight, to take the glare off the SWA employee mistakes, made it even worse. Shame on SWA even now.

[Heccubus]

To those of you who are actually COMMENDING this action: What the hell is wrong with you? You're acting like Smith is the friggin' blob, coming to ooze over into your personal space and devour everything in his path. You live in a country where an increasing majority of the population is overweight, and yet you somehow find it acceptable to stand there in criticism of someone who's been that way his entire life. Amazing.

[Anonymous1313]

I find it a bit humorous that people are boycotting South West based on this event (and others like it). Do they understand that this policy and evaluation process exists on airlines? If you are boycotting any airline that abides by these policies, I recommend you drive.

[Anonymous3496]

How about you keep your "person of size" policy and institute a "no screaming children" policy...or even better, a "child free flight" offering. I'd rather sit next to a fat guy than have a screaming, squirming, sticky child in the seat next to me. Better still? Remove the option to recline in any coach seat. The dude in *front* of me that takes up nearly all of the space that I paid for by putting his head in my lap is as bad (or worse) as someone who is too large for the seat!

[Anonymous3849]

Sigh. This just goes to show that even if you are right, even if you are famous, even if you fit in the seat and don't disturb your neighbors - there is no getting any justice from Southwest Air. Kevin Smith was booted because he was on standby, and the last person seated, and someone needed to go. Way to tarnish his self-esteem and your customer-friendly reputation all in one fell swoop.

[Mikesw]

http://silentbobspeaks.com/?p=393 Kevin Smiths latest blog post claims linda's conversation was vastly different than what is being portrayed in this blog. Since so far Southwest has been the one lying through out this, who do you think I believe?

[solidox]

I think this is a great idea, after all we're all entitled to peace of mind everywhere we go so we shouldn't have to put up with a fat person's spillage into our seats. I just hate that - ruins my whole flight not to have the armrest to myself. I was wondering if we could apply this principle to other things that really annoy people and ruin flights. Could we kick off ALL the screaming children instead of just some of them? There's been some inconsistency lately from the industry regarding this. If I'm not mistaken, Southwest Airlines was beginning to lead the way in ejecting loud children from flights. It's a great move, and one that everybody appreciates. The problem is, why only some of them? This is sending mixed signals to Southwest AIrlines' customer base. We want to buy with confidence in knowing that every time a child acts up, Southwest's staff will be on its heels ready to take no shit and throw it and its mother (funny how there are almost never any fathers involved) off the place so the rest of us can fly in peace. I think Southwest Airlines needs to go a step further and apply this practice to yet more annoyances. I know I'm NOT the only person who feels this way, but why do we have to allow people covered in strong-smelling perfumes and other scented crap on? It's terrible to be stuck next to someone for a few hours, having to smell a cheap or poorly designed fragrance. It's even worse when you have to sit next to someone who used half a can of hairspray to make sure her Bumpit stays in place. And AfroSheen, oh god. Black hair products smell like death to me! I know I'm not the only one! Why do we HAVE to tolerate it? Can't we just throw off all of these people? Can't we just make it a policy that only thin, white (other ethnicities smell bad with all their weird products), childfree, Christian or Jewish (Muslims are too much a security hazard, I think you'll all logically agree) passengers can go on Southwest Airlines? Those requirements literally knock out 99% of the security issue alone, and would save SOOO much time. And the best part is, people could fly again as flying were meant to be! Seig Heil Southwest!

[bigdandfw]

Once again, Southwest talks about their 25 year-old policy while refusing to address Smith's claim that the policy wouldn't apply to him. The fact that they refuse to address the specific claims (that, as per the written, 25 year-old policy, Smith did fit within the seat) as well as their refusal to participate in a learning exercise to prove it (put Smith in a Southwest airlines seat and show him how he doesn't fit. He seems to under the impression that he does) says to me that the airline knows quite well that the policy they continually quote (in an attempt to move the debate away from what it's really about) wasn't applicable in his case and the gate agent removed Smith in violation of the stated Southwest policy. I would assume the communication with employees will, perhaps, include a reiteration of the actual Southwest airlines policy that they keep trotting out here along with an instruction that the employees make sure it actually applies before kicking someone off a flight. But I'm sure that's too much to hope for.

[Twitter_Fan]

http://silentbobspeaks.com/?p=393 Sorry, all you Southwest supports HAVE NOT HEARD BOTH SIDE OF THE STORY! READ THE LINK ABOVE - I'm sure SW will never publish this - before you make up you mind. Also note that Kevin Smith has said he'll DONATE $10,000 to charity if SW will bring THOSE seats to the Jon Stewart show TO PROVE he fit. He buys a second seat for the privacy and because he "can afford it". There are so many fat phobic people spouting off before knowing all the details. It's shameful! My own fat-phobic husband thinks people should pay by the pound for all flights, like luggage. I say people like you are pathetic and making assumptions. Who's losing here? Kevin Smith. SWA won't admit what it did and remove the "TOO FAT TO FLY" label they stuck him with. PATHETIC!

[meeee]

Huh, that's a little different from the story presented here: http://silentbobspeaks.com/?p=393 In an attempt to cover your asses, you guys still aren't telling the whole truth. It's not okay to keep saying that the issue was his size when that wasn't what happened. I'm a normal-sized person who will be avoiding using SW Airlines in the future.

[Tom14]

The reality is that Southwest Airlines has done the right thing! The other 300 paying passengers have a right to be comfortable. There are other options, Southwest tries to keep prices down by accommodating a large segment of the travelling public. If you need a larger seat, other airlines offer 1st class seats or you can pay for 2 on Southwest. Stop taking everything personal and accept responsibility for yourself. If you think McDonalds is making you fat, Don't EAT there. If you can't swim, Don't ask for all the pools and beaches be closed.

[Anonymous1854]

How do you figure Kevin Smith was too fat to fly, if he could wear the seat belt comfortably without an extender and both armrests down? Seems like y'all pulled him for another reason and just used the too fat thing for some random reason. Everything could have been avoided if y'all had just said, excuse me, we don't have a seat after all. Sorry for the misunderstanding, right?

[Anonymous1610]

The point here is not about the policy folks. While it is kind of a harsh policy it is the right policy. The issue here is that Kevin Smith is not so large as to impede on your space in an airline seat. They have falsely labeled him as being "too large to fly". It's not fair and it's not right.

[Anonymous905]

Your still saying he is fat when thats not the case. You had the chance to make it right and admit fault.

[Anonymous484]

Was he able to buckle his seat belt? Were the arm rest down? When did you change the policy to require a second seat to be purchased even if a seat belt is buckled and the arm rest fully down? Are you saying that he was pulled from the plan due to not fitting in the seat?