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Re: PLEASE NO VACCINE REQUIREMENT

jksobonya
Rising Star

@chgoflyer wrote:

Vaccines save lives.

 

If we would have had actual national leadership at the start of the pandemic, and if people would have thought about others as much as they do themselves, and acted appropriately, the US would be back to normal by now.

 


We had more national leadership last year than anyone cares to admit - people just refuse to acknowledge it because it gives credit to President Trump. The entire world scoffed at President Trump when he said that a COVID-19 vaccine would be available in less than a year, because vaccines typically take years to develop. No one - NO ONE - said that it was possible. Even Fauci wasn't convinced and said that it would take well over a year to have an approved vaccine. The news outlets said it would take a miracle. Well, a miracle occurred. Trump and his team got a vaccine developed in about 9 months. Like him or hate him, Trump along with all of those involved in Operation Warp Speed made the vaccine happen, and he is the sole reason why we are able to have the vaccine now and why we are able to get back to normal now - instead of years from now. If anyone else was in charge, we wouldn't have had a vaccine this soon - that's all but guaranteed. 

 

--Jessica

Re: PLEASE NO VACCINE REQUIREMENT

chgoflyer
Top Contributor

@jksobonya wrote:

@chgoflyer wrote:

Vaccines save lives.

 

If we would have had actual national leadership at the start of the pandemic, and if people would have thought about others as much as they do themselves, and acted appropriately, the US would be back to normal by now.

 


We had more national leadership last year than anyone cares to admit - people just refuse to acknowledge it because it gives credit to President Trump. The entire world scoffed at President Trump when he said that a COVID-19 vaccine would be available in less than a year, because vaccines typically take years to develop. No one - NO ONE - said that it was possible. Even Fauci wasn't convinced and said that it would take well over a year to have an approved vaccine. The news outlets said it would take a miracle. Well, a miracle occurred. Trump and his team got a vaccine developed in about 9 months. Like him or hate him, Trump along with all of those involved in Operation Warp Speed made the vaccine happen, and he is the sole reason why we are able to have the vaccine now and why we are able to get back to normal now - instead of years from now. If anyone else was in charge, we wouldn't have had a vaccine this soon - that's all but guaranteed. 

 

--Jessica


 

Trump deserves some credit for Operation Warp Speed, but it's way more complicated than you might think. Government funding, primarily thru dose purchase commitments, certainly helped considerably. But In many cases drug companies found the administration working against them rather than providing assistance.

 

For example, Pfizer, despite trying to get help from the administration, was denied and ultimately received primarily resistance -- their vaccine (the largest one deployed as of yet in the US) was developed without the previous administration's help.

 

Fact check: Trump wrongly takes full credit for Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine

 

 

Credit where credit is due, this article gives a much more nuanced overview of the topic:

 

Biden Got the Vaccine Rollout Humming, With Trump’s Help

 

 

The speed of the covid-19 vaccines' development is absolutely remarkable, and represents a huge leap for science. The mRNA technology was under study before the pandemic, but the severity of the global pandemic and the race to get shots into arms accelerated the process. The benefits from this successful vaccine program -- led by teams of scientists and epidemiologists, not politicians -- will be realized for many years to come.

 

This is a huge win for science.

 

Here's a great article that details the work that got us to where we are now:

 

A gamble pays off in ‘spectacular success’: How the leading coronavirus vaccines made it to the fini...

 

 

Ultimately though, Trump's initial stalling, constant denial of the severity of the pandemic, CDC meddling, and repeated spread of misinformation caused significant damage to the US, and led to additional deaths that could have been avoided.

 

It's hard to overstate the damage he did. When I say we lacked leadership this is to what I'm speaking. Leadership is based on transparency and fact-based information -- not denials, hoax claims and miracle cures. (I mean, at a minimum Trump literally caused deaths when his idiot followers drank bleach and od'd on hydroxychloroquine. I guess they just didn't understand his "sarcasm.")

 

As US surpasses 400,000 COVID-19 deaths, experts blame Trump administration for a 'preventable' loss...

 

Damning analysis of Trump's pandemic response suggested 40% of US COVID-19 deaths could have been av...

 

Study Finds ‘Single Largest Driver’ of Coronavirus Misinformation: Trump

 

 

Anyone who honestly thinks Trump provided any kind of "leadership" related to the pandemic certainly has a very different understanding of the word than I do.

 

While everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, I'll suggest that the belief that Trump caused more overall good than bad with regards to the pandemic is simply an ignorant one; a skewed viewpoint doubtlessly based on politics, and one not materially based on the relevant facts.

 

 

 

 

Re: PLEASE NO VACCINE REQUIREMENT

DancingDavidE
Top Contributor

Here’s a new thought as well - those with a passport, even if it is not required, would be able to forgo masking or distancing restrictions. 

https://fortune.com/2021/04/01/its-official-vaccinated-people-dont-transmit-covid-19/ 

 

Now it is a huge mess for flight attendants to figure out who has one and who doesn’t, can they be forged, etc...so the restrictions for masking and distancing probably have to stay until the risk is reduced enough for everyone to participate.

Home airport MDW, frequent visitor to MCO to see the mouse.

Re: PLEASE NO VACCINE REQUIREMENT

jksobonya
Rising Star

@DancingDavidE wrote:

Here’s a new thought as well - those with a passport, even if it is not required, would be able to forgo masking or distancing restrictions. 

https://fortune.com/2021/04/01/its-official-vaccinated-people-dont-transmit-covid-19/ 

 

Now it is a huge mess for flight attendants to figure out who has one and who doesn’t, can they be forged, etc...so the restrictions for masking and distancing probably have to stay until the risk is reduced enough for everyone to participate.


I read this too, but I'm not sure if I agree that vaccinated people "don't transmit COVID-19." Just because you are vaccinated doesn't mean you can't contract or spread COVID. You can certainly still get COVID even after you are vaccinated, just as you can still get the flu after you get the flu vaccine. Also this part:

 

Taken together, this means vaccinated people are highly unlikely to transmit the virus when they are not suffering symptoms.

 

This has always true even before the vaccine came into being. People seem to think that asymptomatic spread is how people are getting COVID-19, but there's never been any solid evidence that this is true. Most people get sick because someone has obvious symptoms signaling they are sick that are then passed along to another person - coughing, wiping their nose/eyes, whatever it is. If you don't have any symptoms, it's *highly* unlikely that you are giving any kind of disease to anyone else. 

 

The article was even amended to say:

 

Since CDC Director Rochelle Walensky made the comments discussed below, scientists have pushed back against the idea that vaccinated people “don’t carry the virus.” The disagreement seems to hinge in part on an important distinction not entirely spelled out in Walensky’s comments. Vaccinated people can still be infected with the SARS-CoV-2 virus and suffer the symptoms of COVID-19, though this happens at a much reduced rate and severity, and vaccination eliminates the risk of death.

 

The whole point of getting any vaccine is that it lessens your risk of contracting serious complications of whatever disease you are being vaccinated against. You can still get the disease, you will just have a stronger ability to overcome it if you are vaccinated vs if you aren't. 

 

--Jessica

Re: PLEASE NO VACCINE REQUIREMENT

jksobonya
Rising Star

@chgoflyer wrote:

Ultimately though, Trump's initial stalling, constant denial of the severity of the pandemic, CDC meddling, and repeated spread of misinformation caused significant damage to the US, and led to additional deaths that could have been avoided.


I don't blame Trump for "excess deaths" nearly as much as I blame governors at the state level and their reckless actions regarding how they handled COVID positive patients in  nursing homes and other facilities at the start of the pandemic. All you have to do is look at governor Cuomo of New York, but my state (PA) and several others are in the exact same boat. The reality is that nearly half of all deaths in the entire United States to date (and it's probably more than that) are directly linked to nursing homes and elderly facilities. If we're going to point fingers about something or someone leading to additional deaths that could have been avoided, the nursing home scandals in multiple states (particularly NY) should be your first and only stop. If only the nursing homes and elderly facilities were properly protected in the beginning - instead of pivoting and destroying our *entire* economic infrastructure by closing all essential and non-essential business - our "death count" would literally be cut in half. Trump doesn't deserve the blame for this. He wanted to open the economy back up last Easter. He was right. We never should have let all of this go on for as long as it has. We're causing a lot more harm with continual shut downs and keeping businesses performing at normal levels than we are helping under the guise that we are "saving lives."  

 

--Jessica

Re: PLEASE NO VACCINE REQUIREMENT

chgoflyer
Top Contributor

@jksobonya wrote:

@chgoflyer wrote:

Ultimately though, Trump's initial stalling, constant denial of the severity of the pandemic, CDC meddling, and repeated spread of misinformation caused significant damage to the US, and led to additional deaths that could have been avoided.


I don't blame Trump for "excess deaths" nearly as much as I blame governors at the state level and their reckless actions regarding how they handled COVID positive patients in  nursing homes and other facilities at the start of the pandemic. All you have to do is look at governor Cuomo of New York, but my state (PA) and several others are in the exact same boat. The reality is that nearly half of all deaths in the entire United States to date (and it's probably more than that) are directly linked to nursing homes and elderly facilities. If we're going to point fingers about something or someone leading to additional deaths that could have been avoided, the nursing home scandals in multiple states (particularly NY) should be your first and only stop. If only the nursing homes and elderly facilities were properly protected in the beginning - instead of pivoting and destroying our *entire* economic infrastructure by closing all essential and non-essential business - our "death count" would literally be cut in half. Trump doesn't deserve the blame for this. He wanted to open the economy back up last Easter. He was right. We never should have let all of this go on for as long as it has. We're causing a lot more harm with continual shut downs and keeping businesses performing at normal levels than we are helping under the guise that we are "saving lives."  

 

--Jessica


 

 

I'm no fan of Cuomo, and it is absolutely true that actions many governors took (on both sides of the political aisle) caused many unnecessary deaths, especially at long-term care facilities. But, again, this isn't as simple as oft-repeated talking points might make it seem. This virus critically affects the most vulnerable, and the most vulnerable are the elderly in care facilities. Especially tragic is the loss of life to caregivers in these facilities, often because of inadequate protection.

 

I suggest that if this was addressed nationally at the beginning of the pandemic -- instead of making states scramble on their own to obtain PPE, for example -- the result would have been very different. This is again what I meant about national leadership, and the lack of it having huge consequences.

 

New documents show Trump officials' 'haphazard and ineffective' approach to procuring PPE at start o...

 

 

The AARP maintains a dashboard of where across the US nursing homes were most affected. The data may surprise you.

 

AARP Nursing Home COVID-19 Dashboard

 

 

This article is predictable a little soft on Cuomo, but does give some insight into the details of the situation. It isn't as black & white as it may seem from the memes.

 

Does Cuomo Share Blame for 6,200 Virus Deaths in N.Y. Nursing Homes?

 

 

Trump was absolutely wrong to even suggest things should have been fully open by last Easter. Opening things up in order to "save the economy" would have, of course, led to many, many more deaths. And lots of deaths isn't going to help the economy. For reference, we can look at what happened in other countries, and on a smaller scale individual states who opened up too soon.

 

Saving Lives Saves Livelihoods

 

The success of countries that crushed the curve shows that the “lives versus livelihoods” debate that was prominent early in the pandemic in many countries presents a false dichotomy. The best way to protect livelihoods in the longer term is to crush the virus first and only then reopen the economy.

 

 

Re: PLEASE NO VACCINE REQUIREMENT

DancingDavidE
Top Contributor

@gsking wrote:

Masks all the time?   No way.   Never get the flu shot, never get the flu.   Now because some people have weak immune systems, I have to wear a mask on a plane, en perpetuity?   No thanks. 

 

Perhaps the reason for all the weak immune systems are people being too averse to germs.

 

 


I grew up on a farm so I have been exposed to all kinds of things and unfortunately that doesn't result in a strong immune system. I wish I was like that, but having gotten the flu one or two times per year even after getting vaccine for it I realize there are many people that just aren't as hearty. 

 

This year - no flu. There's no doubt in my mind and from my experience that the distancing and masking works, it's cut the flu totally out this year. 

 

I may wear a mask from now on riding public transportation like the el.

 

Home airport MDW, frequent visitor to MCO to see the mouse.

Re: PLEASE NO VACCINE REQUIREMENT

dfwskier
Top Contributor

@DancingDavidE wrote:

@

 

 

I may wear a mask from now on riding public transportation like the el.

 


Not much need on the L at the moment. I took the orange line to MDW yesterday  at noon.

6 people were on the train. I was the only one that continued into the airport.

Re: PLEASE NO VACCINE REQUIREMENT

chgoflyer
Top Contributor

I've never found the Orange Line particularly busy. The Red Line however...

Re: PLEASE NO VACCINE REQUIREMENT

dfwskier
Top Contributor

Red line from Loyola to Roosevelt wasn't much busier.

 

No train has been full since probably the first week of March 2020. I remember doing the red line to the orange line on March 17, 2020 and both were shockingly empty. Got to MDW and found it shuttered because a controller caught the bug and the tower and airport  had shut down. So back to Loyola I went.